A while ago, you said that the value of the labor that makes a product is equal to the value of the product itself. The amount people are willing to pay for it. Doesn't this mean that anyone who profits off of the labor simply can not ever pay what its worth-since all the money comes from selling the product that the labor made. I mean, most "CEO"'s don't even manage the business.

Even if we divide the value of labor between making and distributing the product, it doesn't change the fact that the Boss man on top (who's making money-and usually lots more of it than anyone else) doesn't the existence of one CEO (not to count the countless fluff jobs that don't really produce anything.) who makes any money at all (while not actually doing anything besides docking pay for the workers who produce the wealth), no matter how little it is (and its usually a lot) mean that they are morbidly in debt-to the workers?

Isn't the only source of their profits from selling the product? But every penny of the product theoretically belongs to the one who made the product (Because the value of someones labor is equal to the amount that a costumer was willing to pay.) Therefore taking even one penny from the profits is....stealing!

Basically: Doesn't this mean that ever capitalistic business has the workers willingly accepting less than what they're worth?

Is so, there really is no "roof" for minimum wage...

Adam Smith said that.

He went on to say that once a small elite had monopolized ownership of land and materials, they would drive wages down to the level of subsistence. It is the "appropriation of land and stock" -- Smith's terminology -- that creates the "market force" that reduces the market value of labor.

Now, that doesn't mean that certain derivative functions -- management, distribution, and even investment -- don't exist, and that labor cannot contract for the delivery of those derivative functions. If you are the labor producing automobiles, or any other good or service, a sales force selling those goods and services is probably necessary. Likewise, certain organizational functions -- we call it "management" -- might be useful. Even "investment" has a place, since the goods and services needed to build and equip a shop must be paid for.

But notice that those derivative functions serve the labor that produces the value. It is distribution, management and investment that are "costs of doing business." Productive labor is the business that has these costs. Our contemporary business model has stood this on its head. The "cost" is productive labor in an arrangement where "ownership" trumps "production," and where the owner of materials and facilities is seen as the central player. Owners have a "natural right" to reduce their "costs" and maximize their profits. Productive labor is not perceived as having any such right.

I say that productive labor has the same, and indeed a superior right to maximize its profit, and that the laws and government have an entirely legitimate function in protecting these fundamental rights of labor -- fundamental rights that have not hitherto been recognized.

As a final observation, notice that recognition and protection of the fundamental rights of labor is entirely consistent with a "market economy," where "market forces" are understood to be shaped by certain legal and governmental constructs. The government has an absolute right, if not an obligation, to shape the fundamental rules of the market in such as way as to guarantee labor its fundamental rights.

Hence the 'anti-exploitation' law. The only way to correct this situation is to make it so no one personally profits from the chain of socially necessary transactions.

If labor must be satisfied with only receiving a paycheck for its socially useful labor, then it stands to reason that management should also be similarly 'constrained' since they too only contribute a fraction of the value created (and as Dice points out, often a very small fraction at that.)

I think it's important to point out that we are no longer talking capitalism here because the rules regarding the 'properties' of money would also have to be shifted enormously to accomodate this shift in pay structure.

"Now, that doesn't mean that certain derivative functions -- management, distribution, and even investment -- don't exist"

Well, I tried to include the management and distribution in the labor as forces that contribute, but it kind of got lost in the greater point I was trying to communicate. However, I notice that you say "and even investment", which I agree can and does have a role to play, but it can be agreed upon that such a role is small, and even of only temporary or occasional importance.

However, I appreciate the rest of the comment, particularly your statement that the current business model is the reality turned on its head.

We can't afford to pay people who don't earn a raise. That is right. I guess I am confused about what the problem is. I have never worked for min. wage. I worked at Bojangles for 4 years and got a $0.25 raise every 6 months except for when the min. wag went up because everyone else got my raise. If someone works hard and earns a raise, min. wage isn't even an issue.

oh, and to Dice, no it doesn't mean that. There are fare more costs to a business that just labor and parts. You have facilities, equipment, insurance, and much more. If you want to get paid what "The Boss Man" gets paid, start your own damn business or work your way to the top.

-Kevin

Conservative Arguments Against The Minimum Wage Prove people who receive minimum wage Don't Work

Kiss my backdoor ; I worked for a corporation for 25 years and a Maggot c.e.o. came in and was there only 6 months and closed the company with out notice to the 3500 employees . He walked of with 40 million dollars ; and to this day the company he closed still owes me 3500 dollars. Let's all vote for Rush the pig and his anti-American freinds like Channey and Bushian maggots..... AYE??? I recommend Don't Know much About American History by Kenneth c. Davis and ---The peoples History by Howard Zinn. For starters.

Kiss my backdoor ; I worked for a corporation for 25 years and a Maggot c.e.o. came in and was there only 6 months and closed the company with out notice to the 3500 employees . He walked of with 40 million dollars ; and to this day the company he closed still owes me 3500 dollars. Let's all vote for Rush the pig and his anti-American freinds like Channey and Bushian maggots..... AYE??? I recommend Don't Know much About American History by Kenneth c. Davis and ---The peoples History by Howard Zinn. For starters.

Not sure what that has to do with the minimum wage. Obviously, I would have to know more about the situation you experienced. I wonder what the board of directors had to say about the company shutting down. I will check out the book. I am not a Bush supporter, but I am a freedom supporter. It concerns me, as a young man with a small business, when people start talking about the government telling private businesses what to do. That's kind of how I feel at the moment. But my thoughts are not conclusive. I am open-minded. I am young. I am learning. I hope I can be that way forever. I just want to know the truth. And the truth, from my perspective, is that there are lots of people looking for a handout or free pass of the hard work of others.

-Kevin

Very sorry to hear your loss SHREDDER, doesn't sound fair at all.

I just heard the audio clips. Some very important logical points are discussed here. The minimum wage is always a matter of dispute. Supporters of the minimum wage say that it increases the standard of living of workers and reduces poverty. Opponents say that if it is high enough to be effective, it destroys jobs, particularly for workers with very low productivity. Personally I think, when the economic condition of US is in the normal state, raising minimum wage can improve the standard of living. But everything has some drawbacks. In time of recession, if the minimum wage is increased it can create job loss. Because, there are many firms, which have no ability to pay the minimum wage to all of their employees. So they are bound to fire some of the employees specially who don’t have much experience. You have given some examples and explained that the minimum wage not creates job loss. But the thing is that US is already in an economic crisis – so it’s not the time for improving standard of living- but to maintain the standard of living. I am not an opponent of minimum wage. But think it’s not the right time.

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This is a catch 22 of sorts. If my company doesn't pay me a decent living wage I cannot afford to shop at many places and usually end up at Wal-Mart buying the cheapest items I can. If people cannot afford to shop at other stores, those stores don't have the money to pay decent wages to employees, and on the cycle goes.

It seems to me that conservatives want to keep the working poor just that. Any attempts to better the lower class is socialism or government intervention. I hope we get to a point were there is less conservatism or liberalism, but just one America. Online Bachelors Degrees

Everything has some drawbacks. In time of recession, if the minimum wage is increased it can create job loss. Because, there are many firms, which have no ability to pay the minimum wage to all of their employees. So they are bound to fire some of the employees specially who don’t have much experience. You have given some examples and explained that the minimum wage not creates job loss. But the thing is that US is already in an economic crisis – so it’s not the time for improving standard of living- but to maintain the standard of living. I am not an opponent of minimum wage.

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That's kind of how I feel at the moment. But my thoughts are not conclusive. I am open-minded. I am young. I am learning. I hope I can be that way forever.I notice that you say "and even investment", which I agree can and does have a role to play, but it can be agreed upon that such a role is small, and even of only temporary or occasional importance.

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Even "investment" has a place, since the goods and services needed to build and equip a shop must be paid for. farmville cheats

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